Ladies and gentlemen, Banal of America! And now, ladies and gentlemen, Banal of America Audio, with your host, Tim Banal. Hello out there, my friends. This is Tim Banal of BanalofAmerica.com with another edition of B.O.A. Audio Season 4. Before we dive into this week's episode, let me give a quick shout-out and congratulations to the US of E.com member, Clan Denon, who won the official US of E Oscar Pick'em Contest.
The prize being this shout-out here at the beginning of the program. Klandennan, once again, a winner in a prediction contest. He is a force in prognostication of pop culture. If you'd like to be a part of such fun contests, which include the prize here that is the shout-out, you definitely want to stop by and join the official BOA forum, theusofe.com, T-H-E-U-S-O-F-E.com. Once again, congratulations to Klandennan for winning the Oscar Pick'em Contest. This week on the program, we are joined by a longtime friend of BOA Audio, one of the very first guests we ever had on the program, the crackpot historian himself, Adam Gowrightly. Adam's going to be talking about his new book, James Shelby Downard's Mystical War.
Fascinating piece of work, really sheds light on a mysterious esoteric researcher from the heyday of conspiracy writing, James Shelby Downard, and rediscovers a number of very interesting and bizarre theories that many of you may not have heard about before but have been tinkering around in my brain for quite a while after I'd read some of the work of James Shelby Downard's protege, Michael Hoffman. We'll get into all that. You'll know who we're talking about and what these theories are as you listen to the program. Let me give you a little bit of a thumbnail look at what we're going to be discussing tonight. We're going to find out why Adam ended up researching the life of James Shelby Downard, and we're going to hear about his exhaustive quest to determine whether or not Downard was a real person or a literary hoax.
This is some riveting and thought-provoking material with regards to the reality of James Shelby Downard. We're also going to cover a number of arcane esoteric stories, the Fatty Arbuckle scandal, how it relates to esoteric symbolism, the much-discussed King Kill 33 JFK assassination theory, which is the brainchild of James Shelby Downard, mystical toponomy, ritual magic, the infamous Babylon working group, and the stories of their creation of a homunculus, the revelation of method, synchro-mysticism, and a plethora of other really heady esoteric topics. It is definitely an interview that sheds light on some of the paranormal world's darkest corners
with the always entertaining Adam Go-Rightly. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Adam Go-Rightly, you must not have heard him on the lengthy two-part interview in Season 1. Definitely want to go back and check that out as we discuss some of Adam's earlier work. But if you don't have time for that, let me give you the bio of Adam Gowrightly here so you can dive into this week's program. A self-described crackpot historian, Adam Gowrightly has been chronicling fringe culture and conspiracy politics in an illuminated manner for more than two decades. An active contributor to the zine revolution of the late 80s and early 90s, Adam's byline was a familiar sight in many cutting-edge magazines of the period, where he sharpened his literary teeth, penning articles on the paranormal, conspiracies, and fringe culture.
His explorations into these arcane waters eventually led to his first book, published in October 2001, The Shadow Over St. Susanna, Black Magic, Mind Control, and the Manson Family Mythos, which has been described as the mother of all Manson Family tomes and will soon be reissued for the 40th anniversary of the Manson Family killings. This was followed by the November 2003 book The Prankster and the Conspiracy, the story of Kerry Thornley, and how he met Oswald and inspired the counterculture, the first bio of the legendary counterculture figure chronicling Thornley's amazing and tragic life. Additionally, he is the author of The Beast of Adam Gowrightly, collected rantings 1992 to 2004, featuring many articles from his formative years in the zine scene and onward into the new millennium.
He's been a radio guest on talk shows across the U.S., Canada, and Ireland, and his articles have appeared in numerous publications, such as The Excluded Middle, UFO Magazine, Paranoia, Steam Shovel Press, and 424, the largest soccer magazine in Great Britain. You can find out much more from Adam at his website or blog. Let me run them down for you first. The official website, adamgoreightly.com, A-D-A-M-G-O-R-I-G-H-T-L-Y.com. Pretty simple. And if you want up-to-the-minute fresh news and insights from Adam Gowrightly, you definitely want to stop by his blog, Adam Gowrightly's Untamed Dimensions. The web URL is gowrightly, G-O-R-I-G-H-T-L-Y.wordpress.com.
Pretty simple. We talk a little bit about it at the end of this week's interview. Definitely a fun place to visit and a website. I really enjoy stopping by every day to see what Adam has up his sleeve at Untamed Dimensions. Without any further ado, let's rock and roll. This interview was recorded on January 13th, 2009. Adam Go-Rightly, talking about James Shelby Downard's Mystical War on BOA Audio, Season 4. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another edition of Been All of America Audio. Our guest this week's been on every season of Been All of America. He's part of the fabric of the program. He is the crackpot historian himself, the illuminated and illustrious Adam Go-Reitly. He's got a new book out, James Shelby Downard's Mystical War.
That's what we're going to be talking about this week. For the folks who don't listen to the baseball special and think there's nothing good in there, well, they didn't realize that we've been talking about this book since that little mini-interview on the baseball special. So now we're really going to delve into it on the program tonight. Adam Go-Reitly, welcome back to Been All of America Audio. You're really racking up the appearances here. It's great to have you on the show. Yeah, this is number four, I guess. I believe so, yes. You're almost in the five-timers club. All right. I heard about, yeah, you were talking about a five-timers club in a recent episode. Okay, well, maybe get me on the baseball special again. There you go. Then you'll be in the five-timers. Yeah. You got the new book out. It came out this fall, James Shelby Downard's Mystical War. I guess folks who don't know who you are should check out the previous episodes that you've been on,
especially the three-hour one we did way back in Season 1. So we'll skip over the bio background on Adam Gowrightly, and we'll just get into James Shelby Downard. And I want to find out first, you know, give us a little thumbnail look of who is James Shelby Downard and then sort of segue that into, you know, what made you decide to look into JSD, as we'll start to call him, I think, as the interview goes on. What made you look into him, you know, recently and end up putting the book out? Okay, Downard first came into pop culture consciousness, you know, back in about 20 years ago in an anthology called Apocalypse Culture, you might have heard of, put out by Ferrell House. And this was really the first time any of Downard's material had been really seen before or entered the popular consciousness of folks.
And it made quite a stir over the years, and the essay in question was gone by different names over the years, but most commonly known as King Kill 33, which looked into the assassination of JFK. And basically the premise of that essay was that it was a Freemasonic conspiracy that was behind Kennedy's assassination, and it was all plotted on the 33rd degree latitude, and it has to do with a lot of other occult symbolism. And he looked into what's called hominotology, which is the science of names.
So it was basically saying that it was all related to the 33rd degree latitude and different names and Freemasonry and all this type of stuff. A very fascinating theory, and like I said, it kind of made a stir, and it resonated with the conspiracy fringe culture over the years, and old Downard kind of took on a mythical status with folks. But not much was known about him. He was a pretty obscure character, kind of really a recluse it seemed because not too many people. He was never on any interviews or this type of stuff, and there was like one photo of him circulating.
It wasn't really a photo. It was more an artist's depiction taken from a photo. Wow. Yeah, so a lot of people got curious. Did this guy even exist? and that speculation was around there for, that was one of the reasons I looked into it, that some people suggested that Michael Anthony Hoffman, for one, who he wrote King Kill 33 with, along with Adam Parfrey and another writer by the name of William Grimstad, who wrote a couple books, Weird America and Rebirth of Penn, under the name of James Brandon. And one popular theory was that these guys basically created Downard, that he was a literary hoax, have you.
That was one of the areas I looked into when I was writing the book to find out, did this Downard character actually exist? On the background of Downard, in recent, the last couple of years, there's been an autobiography that's came out called The Carnivals of Life and Death. It's the biography of James Shelby Downer. It might not have a title exactly right, but that book looks at like the first 25 years of his life. It's really quite a bizarre book. Most people pick it up and go, what the hell is this? You know, it's hard to swallow because it really paints the picture of a young lad who at the age of like five became sucked into some type of Freemasonic conspiracy.
He believed he was this Freemasonic scapegoat, and in those early episodes in this book, this young tyke, four or five years old, time and again goes up to battle with these various Freemasonic spooks and seems to prevail in most instances. These guys were trying to kill him or basically put him in the middle of certain sacrificial magical rites. And it's really a bizarre story. And so Downard grew up, according to him, in this life where he was this Masonic scapegoat and was really one of the first victims of MKUltra mind control
before, you know, the name got into the parlance of the intelligence agencies. He said they were using a lot of these MKUltra techniques on him way back when. And he also said that it was really a lot of the practitioners, practitioners, these Freemasonic adversaries, they grew out of the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, which eventually evolved into the CIA. A lot to chew on there. Yeah, yeah. This guy, it was bizarre, and especially some of the stuff you're referencing here about his childhood that you talk about in the book, too. Really weird stuff. Now, I was going to mention, too, and you kind of touched on it already here, the line in the book, and even Lauren Coleman picked it up in his outstanding review of the book on the
Copycat Effect blog. You put in the book, some cynics have gone so far as to suggest that Michael Hoffman and these other guys created James Shelby Downer. Now, have you established pretty much to your satisfaction that JSD was a real guy and not a hoax or creation of these characters? I think I have established that, at least to my satisfaction, and I looked into this pretty deeply, and for a long time I had almost convinced myself that he didn't exist. One of the first things I started doing was using different services, Internet services and background checks. And I was not coming up with anything from Downard.
There was a couple James Downards in the country, but the ages were all different. And it was obvious it wasn't the James Shelby Downard. and so at first I was thinking, man, you know, and I use some pretty good services and actually one individual who is a private investigator, and that was the first thing, you know, I started getting that information with nothing confirming that he existed. I was going, hmm, maybe this is a hoax. I had some letters from Downard correspondents. One guy named Ian Blake, I've been in touch with him for a number of years, but he was corresponding with Downard or somebody pretending to be Downard back in the day.
So I had actual correspondence with this fellow's signature on it. That was some substantiation, or if that wasn't actually Downard signing that letter and dictating that letter, then certain individuals were going to quite an extent to perpetuate this hoax. So I started looking into all the published material on Downard, And the first reference to him in early popular culture was in Robert Anton Wilson's book, Cosmic Trigger, Part 1. And Wilson put that out in the mid-70s.
And at that time, Wilson had been contacted by William Grimstad, who, as I mentioned before, was also the author of Weird America and Rebirth of Penn, under the pen name of Jim Brandon. And Weird America was really the first – it wasn't to mention – he didn't mention Downard by name, but he mentioned what was one of the most far-out theories in assassinationology having to do with this king-kill theory and how it all took place on the 33rd degree latitude and also how it was part of this Masonic sorcery, this Masonic rite.
But he didn't mention who the author of this theory was at that time, which I started thinking was curious. Was perhaps Mr. Brandon the author of the theory of King Kill 33? That's what I started suspecting because Downers had been known as an expert in the Southwest, supposedly during the 70s and so when he was like in his 50s. He traveled around the Southwest and was into Fortiana. Also looking into all these strange curiosities in the Southwest. He was into underground caves and caddam combs.
And what was interesting is that Brandon as well could be considered an expert on the Southwest, which he covers quite extensively in that book, Weird America. Okay, so the next reference we have of Downard is in 1978. and that's when the first edition of his book on the JFK assassination was published and that was called The Masonic Assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy and it was published in 79 by Independent Research in Ithaca, New York which happened to be operated by Michael Anthony Hoffman.
Oh, wow. All right. Some of these dots are starting to connect now. It's getting confusing, but also at the same time suspicious. Yeah. So in this first published work, it was attributed to James Shelby Downard. And that was just like a privately – I won't say privately circulated, but it didn't get a lot of circulation. It was kind of a Xeroxed, one of those documents you see floating around in conspiracy research, especially back in those days. And so that was 79. It wasn't until 89 when we see it resurface again in Parfrey's apocalypse culture. And now it's retitled King Kill 33, and now Michael Hoffman is the co-author.
And so I started wondering, starting to look at this, did Grimstead and Hoffman were good buddies? And they were presenting, you know, whoever was coming up with this material was presenting something pretty freaking off-the-wall sounding, but also attacking the Freemasons for assassinating JFK. And I thought perhaps creating a character like Downer would be a good literary device to explore a lot of these way-out theories that could be considered controversial.
And, you know, Hoffman at that time, he was a reporter for a newspaper. I forget what syndicate he worked for. And I think Grimstead was as well. They made their living off of being journalists. So that was my original suspicion there that, okay, this could be a literary hoax. Let's look into this some more. Adam Parfrey in the late 80s, early 90s, he writes about this in an essay from, I think it's his book, Cult Rapture. goes out and meets Downard. He's living in Nashville, Tennessee,
and really paints this colorful picture of this character who has sort of a prospector's draw, and he's a bigger-than-life guy who's just this incredible character. and at that time Downard shared more of his story with Parfrey. One of the things was that he was, as a young man, he married a beautiful young lady who apparently was abducted, taken away from him by his Freemasonic adversaries and they turned this woman into what he termed the great whore. They used her for these call to chaos rites in this occult group.
It's something like out of Eyes Wide Shut, these sex magic rituals. And one time he discovered a wire sticking out of her ass. Oh, yeah, yeah. I read this in the book. He pulled it out, and it was some sort of biotelemetric device, something that if you're familiar with Dr. Jose Delgado, was working on these type of remote control, mind control devices is how Downard characterized it. You know, this was back in the 30s or so, and these really came to light in the 60s with some of the stuff Downard was doing for the CIA under the auspices of MKUltra.
But as most people tell you, the common man is usually what we know is like 30 years behind what's actually going on out there. Yeah, that's for sure. And so according to this essay that Parfrey wrote, he was actually shown a picture of this woman. She was a gorgeous young woman. He didn't name her, you know, and I thought, is this just more of a mythology these guys have created? Yeah. I kept looking into doing Internet searches, and I discovered in – he died in 1998. An obituary came across the Internet. This was right at the time when he was really starting to get popular,
and these theories about King Kill 33 were starting to resonate throughout the conspiracy research community, and a lot of people were picking up on this. And he dies. He was born in 1913, died in 1998, so we can do the math, or he's in his 80s or something. And this Internet obituary comes out, and it says that he died, I believe it was of cancer at the time, and the source was the Ardmore, right, which was out of Oklahoma, Ardmore, Oklahoma. and the obituary said he died in Nashville, Tennessee. So I looked at that, and there was an email address attached to it that sent out this obituary,
and I tried to contact that email address. Of course, it bounced back, but hey, we're looking at something that was several years old, and I thought, well, that's odd. Why is it coming from Ardmore, Oklahoma? He died in Nashville, Tennessee. This all stinks to me, damn it. Yeah, yeah. I was almost convinced. And it would have made a lot better book if I could have shown it was a literary hoax. Yeah, you're starting to convince me. I'm wondering where this turns into where you start to get some solid information here. So keep going. So I did look some more on the Internet, and I thought, well, let's look at this newspaper, the Admorite.
Ardmorite, however you say that. And I was actually able to get into their website and track back through their obituaries, and I did find the obituary. Now, I guess there's nothing to say that wasn't a hoax, but it seemed like, okay, that has a little more substance to it. It's more than just an email that came out over the Internet. And so, you know, I started interviewing these fellas, and Parfrey swears up and down that he actually did meet him. And I had extensive, you know, correspondence with Grimstad and Hoffman, and they started giving me some names.
I was actually able to track down the name of Downard's sister who he lived with in Nashville, Tennessee, and I tracked that back. And there is a lady by that name living at the address attached to the letters that Downard was sending back in the late 80s, 90s. So if this was a hoax, then somebody was living at this residence in Nashville, Tennessee, going by the name of Downard. And a few more tidbits. You know, I have actual names of people. Then I started getting more information. It was Hoffman who confirmed the name of Downard's great whore as somebody named Ann Witwer.
And so then I started looking at that. The reason that came out of Ardmore, Oklahoma, that obituary, is that is where it appears that Downard was born. I don't have any birth certificates or anything, but I did some Internet searches and found some old records back in the 1910s and 20s that mentions James Shelby Downard's father, who went by the same name. and I forget what kind of a business he had. So enough things added up that I'm definitely leaning to that he was an actual person. We talked about the photos.
For many years there was just the one photo. It really wasn't a photo. It was an artist's rendition of a photo, which I thought was odd. But then you see in Parfrey's, I guess, Cult Rapture, there's an actual photo of Downert who looks a lot like that artist's rendition. So, yeah, I pretty much believe that Downert existed. He's just one of those characters that are so larger than life that it's hard to believe that somebody like that did exist. Yeah, it's strange. It's strange. And, well, I'll trust your judgment on this one that he did exist because I'm still kind of skeptical that he did. But, like I said, I'll trust your story.
Now, I didn't – if I had the money to spend, then I would go and travel to Nashville, Tennessee and try to figure out where he was buried. And, you know, I didn't contact any of the family. I mean, his sister is still living in that house, so she'd be easy enough to contact her unless this was some elaborate hoax. And one of these guys, Grimstadter, one of these guys was hanging out in Kentucky and dictating letters pretending to be James Shelby Downard for many years. Yeah.
That's another thing I looked at to see if any of those guys were living in Kentucky during that period. But then coupled with all of this, I've been in contact with Grimston and Hoffman and Parfrey, too, and have got to know them, albeit through phone conversations and emails and this type of stuff. But now I'm to the point where I don't feel they're trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. This guy actually did exist. Once again, he was so much larger than life character that it's kind of hard to believe. Yeah, I know.
And specifically with the book about his childhood, you know, that just adds so much more confusion to the story because all that seems like it's just so damn hard to swallow. Yeah, that was just bizarre. Like you kind of take it with a grain of salt. Yeah. You know, read it and then put the book down and, you know, don't believe it or go like, you know, trying to convince people out on the street that it happened. and it was sort of, you know, just read it and enjoy it. Or, you know, maybe he was delusional. Perhaps he was to a certain extent, you know, like Kerry Thornley and these other people who are well-known in conspiracy research circles.
They came up with some interesting theories about things, but because their thinking was so out there, It's like their paranoid awareness was at such a higher level than you or I that they pick up on these threads out there that we can barely even glimpse and bring them to our attention. Absolutely, yeah. That's definitely the case because as we talked about when we sort of teased this James Shelby Downer book at the end of the baseball special interview, the Michael Hoffman stuff has been hugely influential on me. one of the earliest books I read and really just blew my mind, some of the stuff in there, that actually gets covered a lot here in the new book by you, James Shelby Downer, Mystical War.
You touched on a lot of the stuff that's in the Hoffman book, so we're going to hopefully get into some of that as well. Let me bring up something else about Downer and his writings. Sure. I started asking Hoffman, you know, I was looking at how I mentioned the first version was published in 1979 and how it was under Downert's byline at that time, but that seemed to change. I started questioning him during that period to find out, really, did Downert exist? I didn't ask that question thinking I'd trip him up or something. And he really laid it on the line how that all came about. But let me preface it by saying I've seen some of Downer's writings that he did on his own, not published.
Some of it privately circulated, others letters, and he wasn't much of a writer. In fact, he was a very poor writer. It was his ideas that set him apart. It was really Hoffman was the one who crafted King Kill 33. How he explained it was that Downard had been collecting all this material on that theory and had it in a big box, which he dropped off with Hoffman. Hoffman took that and fashioned King Kill 33. Interesting. And so basically took some very crude writings and research material and was able to craft them. And perhaps, I don't know where Downard's theories end and Hoffman's takeoff and how Grimsted works and all this.
But it was really a group of people. And these guys used to meet on occasion. Those must have been some fun get-togethers because Downard traveled around the country in an Airstream trailer, and he'd get together occasionally with these guys wherever the Southwest or Florida, and they would kick around all these ideas. Now, getting back to Downard's crude writings, that was another thing that made me suspect. suspect, yes, once again, he was an actual person or somebody went to such detail in their elaborate hoax to write these very crude materials, which I thought could have been a possibility, but I doubt it.
Yeah, well, I guess while we're on the subject of the writings and the crudeness of it, I just wanted to ask also that it seemed kind of profane in some ways. And some of the, you know, he's using the N word. He's using, you know, he's calling people the F word, the other F word. And I was just sort of taken aback by that because it was like, I know it was a different era and everything. But at the same time, it was like, geez, wow, this dude's like, he's kind of, he's a little out there in his profanity. Now, where did you see that at? You quoted it in the book. Okay. Forgot what I wrote about. Yeah, I saw that in some of his letters. He was, you know, that's another thing about when I talked about crude, I wasn't necessarily talking about some of the language.
Yes, but he was pretty straightforward about his feelings. I think Hoffman took a lot of that stuff and ironed it out or tempered it. But, oh boy, even some of the stuff, I don't even know if we want to use the language on your show. some of the letters he sent out about the different conspiracies going on. I have this one letter, I wonder if I have it handy, where he sent out outlining his conspiracy, and he mentions jungle bunnies in it. And to everyone he sent out this letter, if you're going to republish this theory, then damn well better leave jungle bunnies in there.
Now, I don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't condone that type of thing. I'm not racist, and he definitely was, but along with all that aspect of his personality and his writings, he came across some really important information that resonates with a lot of people, so you've got to take the good with the bad. Yeah, exactly. That was just a strange part of the whole thing because he sounds like an admirable guy, and then you read some of that stuff, and you're like, wait a minute, dude, this guy's kind of a monster. So it's a weird sort of juxtaposition.
And I don't know how to condone or... Oh, yeah, yeah. It's way over-the-top stuff. We're not even talking about it on the show, really. We're not over-the-top. I mean, we're an Internet show, but still. Yeah. It's pretty out there. And one story in the book I wanted to talk to you about that Downard mentions and has a lot to do with this ritual magic stuff is the whole Fatty Arbuckle rape case, I guess you could say, from way early in the early 1900s. I don't know exactly what the date is. I'm sure you do, and how it may have been more than just, you know, the sensational celebrity crime of the time, but actually there was some ritual magic sort of thing going on there with names and situations and dates and locations and stuff like that. And Downard talked about that, I guess, in his writings because you mentioned it in the book,
and I want to ask you about the whole Fatty Arbuckle thing. So let's talk a little bit about that. Yeah, that was among all these magic rites that Downard claimed were going on to. ultimately bring about the New World Order, of all things. Part of it, you know, the lessening of morals and a lot of these magical rituals were using what he called twilight language, kind of imprinting occult or subliminal messages on the mind of the public. And one of these rituals, this magica sexualist, as he called it, occurred at the St. Francis
Hotel in San Francisco, and the date was September 3, 1921, and featured Roscoe Fatty Arbuckle, who allegedly raped the actress, whose name was Virginia Rappé. And I have actually a photo of Virginia Rappé's grave site, which I just took a few months ago, visiting our mutual friend there, Greg Bishop in L.A. It's at that Forever Hollywood Cemetery, which I encourage you to check out when you get back there sometime. Yeah, I'll definitely check it out. There's a lot of cool things there, including the Johnny Ramone grave that Nick Redfern has up on his website with Johnny playing guitar.
But anyway, back to Arbuckle and Virginia Rappé. Part of this right, Arbuckle, according to the Hoffman and Downer theory, used a wine bottle which helped produce the must of an elephant, which fulfilled his role as the chubby behemoth. Now, sometimes you wonder where you get all this stuff. Bohemoth is equated with Beezlebub quite a bit. It relates to the legend of Beezlebub. And so what all these undertakings were designed to do was imprint, as I said, the mass public or the dreaming group mind with certain subliminal energy, or what I called before twilight language.
And Virginia Rape relates to virgin rape, which is signifying an important alchemical right. Yeah. All right, now we kind of already touched on the whole King Kill 33, but let's sort of flesh that out for people who haven't heard about it and tie that into the whole 33-degree latitude as sort of a sacred line because I was really impressed how you sort of drew the line there from Dallas all the way across the southwest into a lot of different cities and areas that were very esoterically important, and it was really bizarre in that respect. So I guess talk a little bit about King Kill 33, and then we'll extend that into the whole 33-degree latitude toponomy, if you will. Okay, first, a little glossary of terms here.
As I noted on the back cover of the book, it looks into Downard's lifelong battles with Masonic sorcery as an investigator and exposer of the science of symbolism and also onomatology, which is the science of names, and mystical toponymy, which is the science of places. And once again, Downert, as an expert in the Southwest and traveling across the country, a lot of instances followed this 33rd latitude along, which will take somebody to some pretty interesting places, particularly across the Southwest.
West, and it ties in a lot of important areas in history, from Daly Plaza, which happened on the 33rd degree, as well as such venues as Roswell, where the supposed alien crash happened way back when, as well as Alamogordo, where the first nuclear bomb blast tests, atomic bomb tests were done prior to, you know, during the World War II prior being dropped on Japan. It also stretches to Charleston, South Carolina, where Scottish Rite Freemasonry was founded.
And so these are the type of things that Downard was tying together on that 33rd degree latitude, different place names and events and how this was all part of a magical ritual. And that's the premise behind King Kill 33 that we're in. Downward suggests that a Masonic conspiracy went to these great lengths, which I'll outline, to correspond JFK's assassination to what he called the killing of the king, which is in essence a fertility rite. and the ultimate design of the killing of the king is to bring about what Downer termed the revelation of the method
by really doing a lot of these things symbolically right in the face of the public to help usher in, you know, what is the revelation of the method? What are they trying to bring about? Well, perhaps the New World Order by slowly conditioning people and putting things like this right into their face that eventually will just come accept these things as normal and there's no control over. And it's done by a bunch of lone nuts, and this will help usher in perhaps a New World Order or end times scenario.
One of the areas that, when we're looking at place names, Downard equated the JFK assassination to the Macbeth tragedy and this fall of Camelot, this whole killing of the king, psychodrama. drama, and Macbeth, you know, in the Shakespeare tale is a king that's killed in accordance with a plot devised by a witch's coven, and Macbeth was later done away by these very same means, and so this is an instance equating Macbeth with the Kennedy assassination, where a lot of these names come up time and again.
In Scotland, the Macbeth clan has variations on their name, including McBain or Baines. And Kennedy's successor was Lyndon Baines Johnson. All right, that kind of leads into the whole mystical toponomy part of the book and Downard's research and something that's definitely resonated ever since he sort of put it out there, the whole idea of place names and locations and that kind of stuff and the importance of that in this weird, magical, alchemical world that is really strange. So I guess talk a little bit about the mystical toponomy. Yes, which mystical toponomy, that's a central theme in this whole downwardian cosmology. And the authors used a lot of the examples, you know, to point this out, how the Kennedy
assassination was using this mystical toponymy and incorporating it with the word wizardry, which is also onomatology, to bring about the design behind Kennedy's assassination. One example is the Mason Road, which runs through Texas, demonstrating how this alchemical formula links significant place names to the 33rd degree latitude, and 33, of course, happens to be the highest degree of Freemasonry. And this is all tied to Earth energies and geomorphology. Now, located along that 33rd degree line, you'll find Daly Plaza in places like Roswell
and Alamogordo, and other significant sites where the, you know, Hoffman and Downard contended that high-tech black magic rituals have presumably occurred over the years. And it should also be noted that Freemasonry's most influential branch, the Scottish Rite, was founded by Albert Pike in Charleston, South Carolina, which is a city located on the 33rd degree as well. So you can see this 33-degree latitude and these different areas lining up. Now, Daly Plaza is located near the Trinity River, which was a site of the first Masonic temple in Dallas.
And Kennedy's motorcade was just about under the triple underpass when three shots rang out, wounding Kennedy twice and John Connolly, the Texas governor, once. And so we see number three is very important to Freemasonry, not only as the highest degree, but also the number three itself, which we'll get into here in a minute. Even the date, 11-22-63, contains some symbolic numerology. Of course, November 22, 1963 being Kennedy's assassination. So if you take 11 and 22 and add them up, what do you get? 33. So as I was saying, the number three is key in Freemasonry,
and it corresponds to death magic rituals such as the legend of the three unworthy craftsmen who murdered Hiram Abith, the architect of Solomon's Temple, which is huge in Freemasonry. And this is all recorded in the legend of the third degree of Freemasonry. And so in the Kennedy's assassination aftermath, there was three tramps arrested in Daly Plaza, which once again is very symbolic. And a lot of people over the years have suggested that these were perhaps covert intelligence agency hitmen. And the image of these tramps has been widely circulated over the years. And according to Michael Hoffman, it is the key symbol to this enigma of the Kennedy Hoodwink.
Yeah. One thing was interesting. You're looking at the number three. And in masonry, there are three mystical steps or the three grand steps that symbolically lead, you know, from this life to the next one. And so that's part of this magical ritual. Downard himself had a confluence of threes in his birth date. He was born on 3, 13, 13, which I found was kind of interesting. And synchronicity or synchronistically, that was the same date of William Casey's birthday with the CIA. director under Ronald Reagan. They were born on the same damn day, which is kind of interesting
because Downard claimed his whole life that that whole circle was really the group that were harassing him. Initially, they tried to bring him in to their group, but he rebelled against them. And this was one of the things when I was researching it, when William Casey came up with the same birth date as Downard, I thought this was another reason which led me to suspect that Downard was a hoax. But as I said before, that wasn't necessarily the case, just an interesting coincidence. I started talking about the Mason Road that runs out of Texas.
It connects to the Mason Noel Bar and the Texas and New Mexico border located on the 32nd degree, which is the next highest initiate level in the Scottish Rite Freemasonry. And as this 32nd degree of latitude moves westward, it crosses a range of mountain known as the Tres Romanas, or the Three Sisters. And further west, it passes the ghost town of Shakespeare. And Downard connected the whole Shakespeare and Macbeth tragedy to the Kennedy assassination. And anyway, the name Shakespeare and the Three Sisters, or three witches, all equate to that Macbeth tragedy and how this is tied into the Kennedy assassination.
And as this 33rd degree line, as you move west to Arizona, it crosses the old Ruby Road Trail, which leads to a ghost town once known as Ruby. And in the early part of the century, the town of Ruby was the site of a lot of brutal murders, which allegedly contained ritualistic aspects. And from the road out of Ruby heads north toward the Kennedy and Johnson Mountains. And the JFK assassination, these are just more JFK assassination place names stretching across the 32nd and 33rd degrees. Of course, we know that Ruby, Jack Ruby, played a part in the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination. And it's interesting that Kennedy's assassination took place on Elm Street.
and a lot of these things seem more than mere coincidence we all know about the movie Nightmare on Elm Street Elm Street itself was known in Dallas history as Bloody Elm and was the scene over years of numerous gunfights and stabbing and all kinds of violence which was perhaps a whole prelude to this ritualistic killing of the king And just to clarify here, these places like the Johnson-Kennedy Mountains and the Shakespeare and Ruby and the Three Sisters Mountains, these things were all named like, I don't want to say 100 years before the assassination, but damn near close, I presume, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it's not like, you know, these aren't like tribute towns and cities or anything like that. I mean, these are things that just sort of weird coincidences that just keep piling up on the 33 line.
And Downard even equated all of this to the Wizard of Oz and Ruby Slippers and Oswald himself, who went by the name of Oz, that it was all really connected up to some strange mythology that interweaves all these myths and things together in our daily lives. That's the kind of scary part about the whole theory in a way, too, because it's like a Pandora's box. It's like being half pregnant, you know what I mean? You can't really – you either look at it and you're like, wow, that's amazing, or you're sort of like, you don't believe it. Or it's just – it's so bizarre that if it's accurate, I guess, or true that there's this bizarre connection.
And like I said, these things were named so long ago that, I mean, this has to be a very longstanding and far-reaching and elaborate conspiracy. that these things are named way beforehand, and 100 years later or something like that, all the names come together in this amazing confluence on November 22nd. So it's kind of scary if you open your mind to thinking, is this possible? Well, there's the element of magic, which is definitely part of all this, that there's a magical design weaving this all together. It's more than just an elaborate Masonic conspiracy, a bunch of guys that got together and saw that President Kennedy was elected and devised a way to connect his assassination to all these other things.
Perhaps this was some type of imprint, some magical energy connecting, you know, to Earth energies. That's another thing that Downert and his compadres got into, that all of these are connected. And we're talking about ancient rituals and fertility rites, and it all connects back to worshipping these old ancient powers that have been around for, you know, ever. Yeah. Now, and based on your research and your opinion and stuff, like how real is this whole idea of, you know, these ritual magic and that kind of stuff? Because at first, Lush, you kind of think, you know, that this is just stuff that people make up, but maybe there are people that actually believe in it.
So, I mean, what do you think? Well, what Downard talked a lot in the book about, he was talking about these, once again, these magical rituals that are something out of Eyes Wide Shut, Aleister Crowley-type stuff that certain intelligence agencies – he said the core group of the OSS were the same ones. You know, the OSS became the CIA. These individuals who made up that group were the ones who were behind a lot of these magical rituals. And when you look at intelligence agencies, you know, they are basically secret societies.
They're fraternal orders. And when you look at who makes up a lot of, you know, even like things like the skull and bones and our presidents, I put up a blog post recently. Many of our presidents have been very high-level Freemasonry or they have this occult background like the Bush family going through skull and bones. So you definitely have this tapestry, this history of people who are involved in intelligence agencies having this connection to these occult ritual orders. Now, connected to intelligence agencies are such projects like MKUltra, Project Monarch, which really entered into our language here in the last 10 or 20 years.
I think most of your listeners have an idea that what MKUltra was, CIA's long-running mind control experiments, where they were trying to basically get an edge on the competition and perhaps create Manchurian candidates, as proposed in the great movie The Manchurian Candidate. And there's a lot of evidence that shows that they pursued this by using a lot of different methods. They experimented, used different drugs on people and these biotolemic devices. And a lot of people today say that they're being harassed by microwave machines and all this bizarre stuff going on.
And out of MKUltra came a group known as the Monarch Mind Control Survivors. And if you get on the Internet and do a search, you'll learn more about these folks. And you hear a lot of books like Kathy O'Brien's book, Transformation in America. And, you know, a lot of this, it's kind of hard to swallow. But what they're suggesting in these books is that they use all the trappings of like witches' covens and satanic rituals and these type of things as a method of control and programming different mind control victims.
And, you know, ceremonies very similar to the magical rituals that Downard talked about. So Downard, just to go back to what I said before, Downard was talking about all these things and spooky intelligence agents with Freemasonic allegiance using different mind control devices such as these biotolemic remote control devices, devices, as well as magical rituals for what means basically to control the populace and bring about this New World Order revelation of the Method agenda.
I don't need to live in this physical realm. I walk around in the physical realm, and I put on the faces, and I talk, and I play, and yeah, it's a big act, man. You're listening to Banal of America Audio. In the spiritual world, it's where I live. I exist in places you never even dreamed of. From my own cynical, skeptical point of view, I kind of was wondering also, I was speculating that maybe a lot of these ritual sex acts and all that stuff was just a cover for homosexuality in these early unforgiving era of the 50s and 60s and that kind of thing. Because I can imagine, you know, you get like a Senator Larry Craig, you know, the guy from the bathroom stall there. I could see him in a situation with robes and candles and shit like that, and he's like, no, I'm performing a magic ritual.
So, I mean, in a way, I kind of was like, maybe that's what's really going on here, and they're just like, have to put all these extra layers and shit on it to try and protect themselves, because they're high-powered figures and that kind of thing, and then, you know, by adding in all these elements, they add this air of mystery to protect themselves or something like that. I mean, that's just from a skeptical point of view, I guess, that sort of came up in my head. What do you think of that? Did Larry Craig actually say that? No, no, no, but he should have tried. Maybe that would have worked out well for him. He could have had a new career as a conspiracy whistleblower or something like that. You're asking me if these magic rituals actually happen. It seems like there is the trappings with a lot of these stories.
Remember the whole Franklin cover-up thing? Yeah, yeah, exactly. There was elements of that in there, you know. A lot of it really had to do, you know, there was some – came out of the whole savings and loans scandal, and it was discovered that this guy named Larry King, and not the Larry King we all know and love, but he was the Southernery King who ran the Franklin Savings and Loan and actually he was a huge player in the Republican Party back in the Reagan era and it turns out he was also part of an underground black market of selling children
and you know setting up these rendezvous with different prominent people. Once again, the specter at times that comes out of a lot of these stories is that there was this satanic element involved in these things. What confuses and muddies the matter all the more is that you have these other mind control survivors who come out and start telling their story. They're linking together what went on with the Franklin cover-up. Then they're telling more extensive stories of this huge network of satanic groups
that are dealing in all this child pornography and murderers and this black market of drugs and all these type of things. And, you know, even some of the more outlandish tills, like I believe it was Kathy O'Brien that's claiming that Ronald Reagan and Dick Cheney and all these guys are reptilian shapeshifters. It seems like sometimes a lot of these elements are woven into the story to discredit the whole thing. So sometimes it's hard figuring out what's what, separating the wheat from chaff to get to the bottom of all this craziness. But, you know, I don't know.
Sometimes just the whole – I think I touch on this a bit in the Downard book is about the satanic cold out of Mexico. Yeah, I think so, yeah. And they basically used all the trappings of Satanism to bring people into their cult for whatever reasons. You're going to get involved in have some sex and some cool satanic sex. And also part of it was going out and doing ritual murders and that they would become empowered by this, that they would feed off the souls they killed and that would even allow them to have superpowers.
powers and all of this is really this, you know, and once they get involved in murders and all the satanic activity that could be used as blackmail against them as well and it's a way to indoctrinate them into the cult, but, you know, what the real motivation of the cult leaders is to be, is a black market drug network or pornography and that the whole Satanism thing is just a mechanism of control. Yeah, exactly. So that's kind of what I was saying earlier. You sort of brought it all back full circle. It's dangerous, I guess you'd say, to read into some of the layers that may be on top when in fact it might be a much more benign situation going on than they add in all these extra layers.
So it's interesting to think about. Yeah, just to muddy the waters all the more. That's the paranormal world for you. And now the next thing I want to talk to you about here is one of my all-time favorite stories in the world of esoterica. And actually, when I was out in California this summer visiting Greg, we hung out for the day. And we really didn't talk shop all that much because it was the second day we'd hung out. But the one thing that did come up while I was hanging out with him I wanted to talk to him about. And he really only knew as much as I did because it's such a mysterious and longstanding story. And that's this whole thing involving Jack Parsons and Homunculus, which I'm sure you'll explain in a moment, and this jar called Jumbo that was out in the desert that was, you know, it's hard to explain.
I'm sure you'll be able to phrase it better, but it's really one of the most bizarre stories I've ever heard in Esoterica, and that's saying something. The homunculus, jumbo, Jack Parsons attempts essentially to create a being of some kind using, you know, primordial energies and strange alchemical situations that has been sort of in the underground and urban legend realm for quite a while, at least 40 or 50 years now. ever since those early days in the desert when they were tinkering around with nuclear stuff, and some of the people who were doing the tinkering were people who were a part of this occult world. So let's talk about Jack Parsons, Jumbo, and the homunculus. To address that, we need to talk about the Downward Central thesis that went behind this whole grand Masonic conspiracy.
And it all deals with three great alchemical works that are going to bring about this revelation of the methods and the end times. And the first one is the creation and destruction of primordial matter, which you mentioned. And the second being the killing of the King Kennedy. Then the third is the last great Masonic alchemical work will be making manifest of all that is seen, which is the final act. And we don't know exactly what that final act was. Talking to Adam Parfrey, who was quite a downed fan and proponent, He thinks it's going to be something nuclear in nature, perhaps nuclear bombs bringing about these end times.
But getting back to that first great act of Masonic alchemy is the creation and destruction of primordial matter. Downer contended this act really happened at Alamogordo, White Sands, during all the atomic testing that went on there to develop the A-bomb. And that's when that actually happened. Now, let's talk about Aleister Crowley a little bit. I think he plays into this, that he was making certain pronouncements regarding atomic experimentation in the early part of the century, 20th century. And his book of the law got into that,
that all of this would eventually, these atomic explosions, once we started messing around with this type of stuff, would transform mankind and bring about some type of cataclysmic transformation and would create elemental beings. and would basically bring about an integration of the masculine and feminine attributes, would create a hermaphrodite. And anyway, so to this end, the onset of the Atomic Age equates to what Crowley called the Aeon of Oris, this coming new age that would usher in his religion, Thelema, as the world religion.
So this brings in Jack Parsons. Parsons was a Crowley prodigy. He was a rocket scientist and one of the founding members of Jet Propulsion Laboratories back in the 30s. he actually came up and helped develop a solid rocket fuel technology that eventually got us to the moon. So he was involved in all this, but like I said, he was a Crowley prodigy, and he was the first head of the California branch of the Agape Lodge of the OTO. During the 40s is when he met up with old L. Ron Hubbard, future founder of Scientology.
And at that time, these guys got involved in something called the Babylon Working, which was kind of to do the same thing, to create an elemental being. And once again, sex magic rituals were tied into this, as well as Parson's wife, who they met around this time, Marjorie Cameron. And so we get into talking about the creation of elemental beings. And Parsons ended up blowing himself to smithereens. It was in 1952. Some interesting dates here, too.
That can go off in another tangent. I don't know if we need to go off on. But back in 1946, he and Parsons were conducting these experiments and these magical workings and apparently came into contact with some type of extraterrestrial intelligence out in the Mojave Desert. That was 46. 47 started the great wave of UFO sightings with Kenneth Arnold and ushered in the modern era of UFOs. And so some suggest that it was Parsons and Hubbard's workings out in the desert that might have opened up some door.
Now, in 1952, like I mentioned before, Parsons blew himself up when he dropped some fulminite of mercury at his home. And there's been a lot of theories. What was he doing? Parsons was an expert in explosives. He'd actually provided expert testimony in court cases back then. So a lot of people thought it was curious that he blew himself up. You know, this guy knew how to handle explosives, and there's been different theories that he might have been targeted for murder or who knows what.
But the theory put forward by Mr. Downard and Hoffman is that he was conducting or trying to create a homunculus, this inanimate being, this elemental being, by a combination of high-tech science and magical ritual. And during the course of this, he killed himself. and so what Downard and Hoffman went on to suggest is that during the course of the atomic bomb test leading up to the climax of World War II out in Alamogordo that the same type of thing was happening with this jumbo.
Jumbo was in a container out there in the desert. It was nearby these bomb blasts, but it wasn't actually one of the bombs that got blew up at that time. So what Downard suggested is that they were actually trying to commit, basically create an elemental being out there, which was the creation and destruction of this primordial matter, and Jumbo was later blown up. It wasn't actually one of the actual bomb tests that went out. Jumbo was actually destroyed after they dropped the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Yeah, it's strange. It's weird. And the whole story's always kind of stuck with me as something that's really strange.
And we really don't know too much about it, I guess, because Parsons and these dudes aren't around anymore. And I don't think they really share too much information about what the hell they were doing out there in the desert. But the whole idea of a homunculus and some kind of entity like that being created is really spooky and bizarre. Yeah, and I think those guys would be better authorities to talk to if you ever get the chance, Hoffman or Grimstad, to pin them down where they got this information. This seems to be coming directly from those guys. and it's also tied into a lot of the mythology around the Kabbalah. You know, I get pretty in-depth into it in the book and quote Downard pretty extensively about some of these theories.
I'll see if I can pin them down. They seem like strange cats. I'm a little scared of them in a way, so we'll see. Yeah, let me add something about Parsons. Sure, go ahead. One thing, like I was saying, Parsons, his involvement with JPL and the whole solid rocket fuel technology led to us going to the moon. And according to Downer, the moon landing itself was but further unraveling of all this whole Masonic conspiracy using this mystical toponomy. and that the firing moon rockets occurred on the 33rd degree latitude at Cape Kennedy. And Downard contended that the whole moonshot and all of that was arranged by whoever you want to call them,
the Freemasons, Illuminati, cryptocracy, that was arranged so that the first man on the moon, Neil Armstrong, was a mason, a 33rd degree mason. And that, according to Hoffman, one of the objectives of all of this is bringing what's called prima materia to prima terra, which was accomplished during the moon space flights when they brought back all those moon rocks, which they returned to Earth and ostensibly used this material in occult rituals. And then the whole revelation of method thing has always sort of fascinated me because it seems like, as many of the listeners know, I just got into this, you know, I'm approaching, I think I'm in my fifth year here in the world of esoterica.
And it seems like that we're in some kind of revelation of method, period. So I guess I'd ask you, with the whole idea of the quickening and stuff like that that people talk about, and then, of course, 2012, it's just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger over the next four years. And then, you know, 9-11 and how the 9-11 Truth Movement really exploded, and it sort of mirrored the JFK thing. I guess it feels like we're in some kind of revelation of method period So I guess I'll just ask you, what do you think of all that? And the idea that we're heading to some sort of conclusion And that it may be the conclusion of this long-standing thing that we've been talking about here This magical, alchemical orchestrating of world events
It does seem like that, doesn't it? It sure does, and it's kind of scary Yeah, so many things seem to be coming down now But, you know, first of all, let's look at it in the context of recent history, the 1960s. If you put yourself in the middle of a certain period in the 1960s, it seemed like the whole – everything was going crazy. I mean, really, you had the Vietnam War going on, but you had this whole youth movement that rose up, and you had different anti-war groups, and the Black Panthers, and all of this social unrest.
You had all that going on in the psychedelic movement, and things were happening fast, and all of a sudden you had Kent State, and you had the Manson family murderers. and it seemed like all these assassinations you had JFK you had Martin Luther King Bobby Kennedy it seemed like all the agents of change were getting picked off one by one you had Malcolm X members of the Black Panther Party were virtually decimated at that time I think that might have been a result of
COINTELPRO, the FBI operation. But the black movement was virtually wiped out in the late 60s. You had all these things going on. You had a couple of years later, the President of the United States had to resign. He was ran out of office. So that was a very tumultuous period. and I don't know if where we're at right now in historical context is any crazier than that, you know, being in the middle of that period and seeing the leaders picked off in plain view
and, you know, for anybody who really looked into it, you know, They were being assassinated one after another to keep – there was some design behind it to either keep the military-industrial complex going or these guys, Kennedy or his brother, were going to bring about some change that the powers that be didn't want to happen. So anyway, I grew up in the 60s during that period, and I don't know if it's any crazier now. It seems that period back then was even more crazier than a lot of the stuff we're going through now,
but not to say that that sense isn't in the air that something's going on. And, you know, there's a script that's unfolding, and it's happening very fast. I mean, just from my perspective, I don't know if it's getting older, but time seems to be flying by. Yeah, I've noticed that, too, actually, yeah. What Art Bell talked about, you know, the quickening, and that's something that – not a big Bible guy, but there are some passages in the Bible that say when those end times come, that time's going to move real fast. The Revelation, the Method, and Downer, they were talking about that these stage events were slowly conditioned in us for the end times
so we could be a bunch of sheep, sheeple zombies that are led of our own accord. we agree to the terms. So when we see things happen like the Kennedy assassination or 9-11 and we accept the official view, or maybe not even that, even when we realize that there's perhaps some far-flung conspiracy behind all of this, but we go ahead and accept it, then that's part of the revelation of the method is conditioning us for making manifest of all that's unseen, what's lying around the bend.
This recent financial upheaval definitely shows you how quickly things can go south. Absolutely, yeah. People panic, you know, and it's like even, you know, they're seeing their retirement savings reduced by 20% in a few weeks, you know, and it's like, and that's where we start going, oh, God, somebody do something. Government, what can you do for us? Let's come up with this TARP thing, you know, and it's like, well, wait a minute, what's really going on here? Are they just ripping us off for more money? This is going to be like the last, you know, one last stab at us to milk us dry everything they got before this collapse comes down.
You know, what is going on here? And, you know, like most people, when they brought up this whole bell out and all this, most people are going, yeah, do something. We don't care. Just fix the problem. We're scared, you know. And it's the same thing that happened after 9-11. You know, people were, I remember George Bush there at the scene of the collapsed towers rallying his troops around. It was, you know, a lot of people have equated it to Hitler's Reichstag, where he basically whipped up the people into a lather. Well, see what they've done to us. We're going to go do it to them.
And the country, you know, for a little bit was pretty united because we'd never had that happen to us before. So, you know, we're out the blood. But in the big picture of things, you know, it was a few thousand people. It was just a blip on all the tragedy that goes on every day. But it seemed like a mechanism. This is what Mae Brussel, the conspiracy researcher, and I think I mentioned her a bit in the book, that she called a strategy of tension that was designed to do the same thing that 9-11 did. She died before 9-11, but she said the Manson family murders basically accomplished a whole similar thing where it was orchestrated, and she believed it was a military intelligence thing.
I'm not saying I subscribe to that 100%, but it basically helped bring an end to a lot of the anti-war movement and painted hippies in a much darker light. So episodes like that in Kent State and Altamont Rock Festival where the Hells Angels brutally clubbed somebody to death was creating an atmosphere in America where people could be manipulated using these different episodes. episodes, Jonestown was another incident bringing about this strategy of tension, pushing us
closer to whatever you want to call it, a police state, new world order, where people feel they're becoming powerless, and there's all kinds of boogeymen out to get them. Let's turn more power, more money, taxes over to somebody to take care of us. I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I try to put these things into context, and I don't know anything for sure, but there seems to be that buzz in the air that we're at an epoch. Yeah, that's for sure. And just the recent election kind of just shows how people are sort of yearning for this change,
but we don't know what the change is going to be. So, you know, we may be being hoodwinked into, you know, hoping for change, and the next thing you know we're part of a North American union and all kinds of crazy shit's going on. So who knows? It's scary. But I think just to sort of go back to what you were talking about with how the 60s were pretty wild and everything and were they any wilder than now, And maybe that was the method, and now we're in the revelation part. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Because I think that sort of the whole 60s thing with the assassinations and then all the events you just talked about, Altamont and the Manson killings and all that stuff, seems like after that people sort of just like they just didn't have the same amount of passion
about America or life or whatever. I don't know. It sort of sapped the energy out of America. I mean, I wasn't around, you know, I can't really speak to that on a personal level, but it does seem like, you know, things were happening in the 60s where change was in the air, and then all of a sudden all the wind got taken out of the sails. Then maybe that was the method, and then the revelation is coming up now, where with the whole influx of information, with the Internet and all that stuff and 24-hour media and all these different, just the whole mass of media that's out there nowadays, You know, it seems like that's fueling the revelation part where more people are becoming aware of what's going on. But it also, at the same time, even though more people are aware, it seems like we're way too far down the rabbit hole to do anything about it.
So, I don't know. I'm just sort of, now I'm just sort of like rambling on my own soapbox of theories and what have you. But that's just sort of how I took the revelation of method, you know, with the obvious, you know, coda that you have to say, you know, if this is all real, you know what I mean? We could also be, you know, we also may have just taken too many bong hits in college or something. So we may be looking into it more than we think. But at the same time, if it's true, it does seem like we're at the revelation part of the revelation of method. You know, we'll see what happens, I guess. That's sort of the way this whole esoteric world unfolds. Yeah, and, you know, part of that revelation of the method I was talking about, the conditioning of everybody.
It seems like the fleecing of America is going on, the escalation of all these rip-offs like this Madoff guy. Yeah. How many more of those are there, and at what point do people start taking out their frustration and anger? and it leads to civil unrest, that's the next step. Or we've been conditioned so much that there's no fight left in us. We've been so saturated with this first method and now the revelation that we've become kind of happy, fat, and sappy with all the things we've been conditioned with,
the spectator society, consumer society, the entertainment into the Internet, and all these video games and all this type of stuff that as a people, as a nation, we don't have the wherewithal to, you know, if one day soon the electricity grids go out and we don't have water and these type of things, how are we going to handle that? Are we going to come together and work with our neighbor and use old Yankee ingenuity, or are we going to become a country of looters and little warring factions? I'm just talking out loud, you know, but these are some possibilities.
So I try to be optimistic, but you also got to kind of prepare for the worst. Absolutely, yeah, for sure. However way you want to do that, whether it's reserves of food or finding a place for yourself out in the country or forming better relations with the people who live all around you, I don't know. I'm going to pass on that last one. Well, yeah. I hear you. I'm pretty antisocial myself. And then you sort of piqued a question here for me, and you've done a lot of research into the JFK assassination. Yeah. The question here is sort of like the 400-pound elephant in the room of the last three months,
and I'm going to try and handle this as delicately as possible, but there's a lot of fear, I think, not just among esoteric circles, but also in the mainstream people, but they don't talk about it. I think Bill Maher mentioned it in the same sort of way I am, that nobody wants to talk about this, but it's something that's weighed on a lot of people's minds in the last three months, and that's that Obama will end up going the same route as Kennedy. And I think you understand what I'm saying with that. And I'm going to also say that, you know, Adam and I don't endorse that kind of thing, so don't harass me, Secret Service. I'm a big Obama supporter. Sorry, listeners who complained that I mentioned it last time. I don't know where you stand, but, you know, we're nonviolent hippies. So we're not going to get mixed up in that.
but it is a worry of many people, and being that we're talking about this whole revelation of method thing and kind of how a lot of people's hopes have been really up in the last three months. Oh, boy, wouldn't that crush them? Exactly, and that kind of seems like it's something that fits into the whole script of the scenario because we're already really down in the dumps as a nation, and that sort of thing would be the complete straw that broke the camel's back and I think crush the nation or send us into civil unrest like you speculated about. But what do you think? Because, you know, I'm sure you've kind of seen this whole thing unfold as well. You know, before that became popular conjecture out there, that thought had entered my mind, you know,
about Obama, something bad happening to him. A lot of people are, I listen, you know, you listen to coast to coast and these type of things. You have people calling up with these visions they've had of something bad happening to Obama, perhaps even during the inauguration. God forbid, like I said, knock on wood, hopefully nothing like this happens. That would be terrible for the whole country. It would be a nightmare. I had a vision, and it's kind of from the Manchurian candidate, that Hillary would be behind an assassination attempt, which they'd have at the convention.
Yeah. And Obama would be up there to give his acceptance speech. Of course, all this has already happened, and Hillary's hit team would take Obama out right there, like in the Manchurian Candidate. Yeah. And she would step up and catch him and hold him in her arms and get blood on her blouse, and they'd take him away, and she'd stand up courageously, and then she'd be ushered in as the new leader. And, of course, she has a pretty – I mean, that's some weird thought I got in my head. Well, I had a similar sort of concern, I guess, when there was a lot of talk that she'd be the vice president, because there's a lot of dark and shady background for the Clintons,
where if she was a heartbeat away from the presidency, that makes you pretty suspicious. So maybe he narrowly avoided it. Yeah, I mean, he might not have any other choice than to have her in a prominent position of power. or maybe there's some kind of deal there. Who knows? I mean, she's, you know, being Secretary of State's a big deal, and who knows what the future will bring for her. I've really envisioned her becoming the president. I'm amazed how that didn't happen. And it's funny now that they're all chummy after one of the most vicious campaign mudslinging.
I mean, only in America can that happen. That's for sure. I mean, could you imagine her being vice president after the way they went at each other and said, you know, going back and forth that either one of them weren't qualified for the job and all this type of stuff? I don't know. That's the world of politics. Yeah. Now, I wanted to ask you also here, what's on the cover of the book in the lower right-hand corner? That's not the thing they pulled out of that chick's ass, is it? No. That is that device on the cover, if you recall in the book, there was a tomb that Downard raided. Okay, yeah. And this device was among the grave goods, and it was the Dayton Witch is what it's called.
and Downard wasn't sure what the hell it was, some type of World War I decoding device or some odd mechanism. And this is a thing he plugged in and it started chattering away. This was among other things like some funny money that he came across and different items that he contacted, supposedly contacted Franklin Roosevelt about. And Roosevelt sent the Secret Service to come and look at this stuff, and they took it away. and so this was just some odd device that had some intelligence agency utilization
or some type of way it could be used. Who knows? Yeah, it was weird. I couldn't figure out what it was. So how did you know what it looked like? Did you describe it and that's how the drawing came about or was there a picture of it or anything like that? There's a bit of a description, but this is basically what the artist came up with. When I first looked at the book, I went, what the hell is that? Oh, okay, that's the Dayton Witch. And he uses different really cool cover. It's a guy by the name of John Moore. Yeah, it is a great cover. And he has different elements in there, like the Colt 45, which Downard always packed with him. In the upper right, you'll see a bottle with LSD and a pyramid with 33 and the butterfly.
It's a reference to Project Monarch Mind Control. You've been in the field for quite a while, and you said down or down, I think you said in the late 90s. Did you ever run across him or cross paths with him or even communicate with him much before he passed away? No, I didn't. I probably got turned on to his work in the early 90s, but by the time I became interested and started gathering material on him, he had passed away. I knew other people who corresponded with him back then. There was a period of time I just never got around to trying to contact him,
but I was heavy into the zine movement, and during that period I contacted a lot of quote-unquote kooky people, but never downered. And then just to sort of wrap up the whole conversation here, like I said, Lauren Coleman did an amazing job in a review of the book at Copycat Effect Blog. Yeah. And at the end, he sort of lists 15, 16 people that sort of came under the influence, I guess you'd say, no pun intended, of James Shelby Downard. You were included in there, Bishop, and lots of dudes, like 15, 16 people. That's probably news to Bishop. Maybe not so much that they were influenced by James Shelby Downard specifically, but sort of by that synchromystic movement, if you will.
which I guess you could kind of throw a lot of these dudes under, especially maybe back in the excluded middle days. Sure, yeah, I see the connection now, yeah. That's became a popular term here recently, the synchromysticism. If you do a web search, there's even a blog dedicated to different people with synchro-mystical blogs that are tying in together the paranormal, you know, with the parapolitical paranormal things and synchronicities that have to do with 9-11, for instance, you know? Yeah. There's a lot of references, apparently, to 9-11 in movies and popular culture before,
you know, 9-11 happened. And so that's kind of what people are into, synchro mystical stuff are into, connecting all these dots. So, yeah, definitely I can see where the bishops of the world would fit into that as well as, you know, Warren Coleman and Nick Redfern and myself and people working on these margins where it's, you know, It's like our interest in talking about Redfern and Bishop and myself as well in the UFO subject. We come at it a little bit different angle. Not saying we're doing anything incredibly original, but we come from more of the Killian-Value camp,
where we're looking at the social implications and how it relates, you know, the UFO thing to paranormal phenomenon, and perhaps quantum physics fit in there, and perhaps we're as much a part of the phenomena, you know, as the phenomena itself that we're helping create this reality. That would fall in line, I guess, with synchromysticism as opposed to dogmatic nuts and bolts, the disclosure movement, that type of stuff. Oh, those folks. Now, would you say that whole synchromysticism movement and sort of branch of esoterica finds its roots in James Shelby Downer and Hoffman and those guys from the earlier years?
Oh, certainly, yeah, yeah. Part of it is looking for symbols and little messages and synchronicities and tying these things together. When I was doing the Thornley book, there was a lot of strange synchronicities that led me along the path of doing that book. And these are the things that Downard was alluding to, and maybe even a carry formally that you need to look deeper than right on the surface of things. You need to approach it from a lot of different angles and open yourself up to little clues when they present themselves,
little things that might appear a coincidence when they keep happening. that, for instance, in regards if you're researching the Kennedy assassination and odd little synchronicities continue to turn up, then maybe that's a message coming from somewhere. Maybe it's coming from another dimension. Maybe it's coming from a part of your brain that, you know, you're learning how to tap into. It's sort of like a shamanistic approach to conspiracy research. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Redfern kind of talks about that a little bit in the memoirs of a monster hunter, too, some of the synchronistic qualities of paranormal research. Let me give you an example. I might have mentioned this to you before, but when I was doing the Thornley book, It's kind of the same approach to the Downer thing. I started gathering material, and I figured when I get enough material that warrants doing a book, I'll do a book. And so I gathered some stuff on Thornley and thought it'd be real interesting. One day I get an email out of the blue from a guy named Bob Newport, who I don't know from Adam. And this is at a private email address. It's not one of my go-rightly things.
It's only people who know me privately would know this email, so there was no way. I don't know how Bob Newport got the email address. He sent an email out saying Greg Hill had died, and this was around 2000. And Greg Hill helped found the Discordian Society with Kerry Thornley. I thought, that's interesting. I had no idea how he knew how to contact me. So I contacted him back. I go, Greg Hill, you knew Kerry Thornley too? He said, yeah, I was right there at the beginning of the Discordian movement when they founded their mock religion in a bowling alley. So I started corresponding with Bob and interviewed him,
actually interviewed him with Robert Anton Wilson, Bob Newport and Bob Wilson. and there was a lot of bombs in the Discordian movement. And he was a wealth of information. He actually had Greg Hill's archives, which documents the history of the Discordian Society, Greg Hill's involvement in Carrie Thornley's. I mean, it was a great resource, and I couldn't have written a book about it. And really, a lot of the book is about the history of the Discordian Society and Robert Anton Wilson. So anyway, later on I asked, Bob, how did you know how to contact me? And he had no idea. What? That's weird. Yeah. And I don't think he was bullshitting me, and he's one of those people who were – these kind of things happen to him.
And so that's that magical, synchro-mystical, tapping into synchronicity thing. And that happened throughout the course of that book. It was one thing after another that led me to write it. So that's what I'm saying about tapping into something. If you put a certain energy into something, it will lead you along that path. And I think that's, I'm proud of most of that book. And that's just an example of perhaps you could call it unwitting sorcery on my part. I know you've got a lot of irons in the fire. What's going on with Adam Goe rightly in the future here for 2009?
It's really early right now in the year, so I'm sure you have some things up your sleeve. And, you know, let us know what's going on with future projects and also the podcast series. I thought maybe you left the old one behind to form a new one with smiles, but I'm not positive, and I'm sure you'll be able to tell us all about that. Okay, I'll lay it all out. There you go. I've just signed a contract to do an update of my Manson book, which is planned to be out on the 40th anniversary, which is this coming August of 2009. So that's a big deal. I'm getting that all good to go, and hopefully, I know the publisher wants to do some promotion on it, so I'll get out and do some book signings.
Oh, wow, nice. Yeah, we'll see at the least. Once again, this is all a ways in the future, and we're just talking about these things now, but hopefully California, L.A., San Francisco, and we'll see if we can take it even farther east, New York or someplace like that. But right now, basically just looking at California. So that'll be fun, the Manson book, and I've basically got the rewrite all done. So that's in the works, and we'll see how that goes. And in addition to that, they're also looking at, and this is not cast in stone or anything yet, but doing also a limited edition of the book, hard copy that'd be signed with a lot of extra features.
and I'm working on some music with some friends that would be added to this package, some original music, a couple songs that have to do with the Manson family. Oh, wow. Working on all that. Nice. Future book projects, and I've got to get on this here shortly because I plan to start it last year at this time, is a collaboration with Andy Colvin, the Mothman photographer. basically telling his story about Mothman. Nice, nice. Interesting. How it's affected his life. So those are book projects. Also writing for magazines, occasionally Paranoia and UFO Magazine,
and I have an article coming out in the next UFO Magazine, depending on when this interview comes out, and there's going to be some certain announcements in that as well about a certain Fordian society, I think. So stay tuned. Interesting. That's quite a teaser. I don't want to spill more beans than that because it's all in the works. All right. Nice. I got that on UFO Magazine. So that's some of the writing stuff with Podcast World. I quit doing my Untamed Dimensions. Where are we at? here several months ago for a variety of reasons, but I am doing a podcast called The Untamed
Grassy Knoll, which I'm doing with Visigoth, the show Beyond the Grassy Knoll. We get together once a month, the last Friday, and it's from 7 to 9 Pacific Standard Time, live shows streaming over the internet and we take callers so I'm kind of keeping my toes in the water there and we usually have guests on the last one we had a guy you've had on a lot Jim Mars that was interesting but it's live freeform radio and that episode with Mars it was marred by a lot of minor disasters. Things were going wrong, but Jim rolled with the punches, and he was real cool about it.
So that's live radio. So I look forward to doing that once a month. That's going on. I think that's basically what I've got going on. Yeah, it's going to be a busy year. And then people can check out your stuff at gorightly.wordpress.com. That's your blog, so check that out. Lots of sexy 1960s ladies on there as well. So if you're into that sort of thing, Devil Girl of the Month, and I'm scrolling down now and looking at the girl dressed as a bunny, I'm liking that a lot. Yeah. That might be my new desktop wallpaper. I'm not sure yet. Yeah, that's cool. There's a website called Humans in Rabbit Suits.
That was just one of the photos there on that website. I try to do a little internet surfing now and then when I find something that, you know, like that photo there. Oh, yeah, that's a keeper for sure. You've got to put her up. Yeah, folks, got to check out gorightly.wordpress.com, know what we're talking about. And I've done a whole series of, I call them the Go Rightly Go-Go Dancers. It's kind of a put-on thing that I have this group of Go-Go Dancers, and you see them all there on the right side, pictures of things from the 60s, like you mentioned. For a while, I was posting a bunch of videos when I'd come across them of old go-go dancers from the 60s. So I guess, you know, it's varied interests, you know?
Yeah, yeah, it's an off-the-wall blog, but it's definitely worth checking out. It's one I try to frequent as much as possible. And where can folks pick up James Shelby Downer's Mystical War? Amazon, I presume, and refined books are sold online? Yeah, basically it's an online deal, Amazon. I need to get it up on my adamgoreightly.com and get the rest of my books there. And if people email me, too, I don't have a PayPal link for this, but a lot of times, you know, I sell a few books here and there. If people want them signed directly from the author, then, you know, they can just email me, and we can do that through PayPal or whatever. I personally like to do that if I find a book I'm interested in.
And if I can go directly to the author and, you know, give him or her a bigger share of the proceeds, and you can also get it signed. Yeah, absolutely. I was going to ask you that if you had a preferred method. That way, you know, it's tough out there. As much as you can get extra, you know, for the book. Sometimes you sell a book on Amazon. You don't get as much as you would if you sold it through someplace else. So, you know, and I will say that my book here from you is signed, and you have delightful penmanship. Oh, well, thank you. I was very impressed when I saw it. Well, that's an interesting comment. When I was, like, in the fourth grade, I won a penmanship award. Wow, nice. I'm not making that up either. I believe you. I believe you.
Adam, it was great talking to you, as always. Very spooky, and as the title of the book suggests, mystical material here in James Shelby Downer's Mystical War. sort of a blending of biography and also various esoteric theories that are really far out but will really make you think quite a bit. And there's even more in there that we didn't touch on, like Jim Keith and Son of Sam murders and Eyes Wide Shut, 9-11, Abu Ghraib, a lot of that stuff's in the book that we didn't even touch on. So there's a lot in there for folks to check out after hearing the interview here to find out more about some of these wild theories involving alchemical-type situations, toponomy, and the theories of James Shelby Downard and his associates.
I give a high recommendation to the book, very fascinating stuff, as I said. The Michael Hoffman book was a huge influence on me and my mindset and looking into the world of the esoteric, and then this book really did a fine job of solidifying a lot of those theories and bringing them up into the present day and giving people a chance to sort of rediscover them. So I take my hat off to you for that. And I look forward to talking to you in two months here for the baseball special when pitchers and catchers report. Actually, we'll be talking pretty close to opening day, so we'll have a pretty good chance to assess our teams and our team's chances in the 2009 baseball season. So I know I'll be talking to you in the not-too-distant future, but as always, it was great to have you on the show. Well, thank you, Tim.
It's always fun. That does it for this week's edition of BOA Audio Season 4. Big, big, super huge thanks, of course, to Adam Gowrightly for coming back on the show. You'll be hearing from him again in about a month for the third annual BOA Audio Baseball Special. Until then, you definitely want to check out his website, www.adamgowrightly.com, A-D-A-M-G-O-R-I-G-H-T-L-Y.com. And you definitely want to stop by his blog, www.goreightly.wordpress.com, G-O-R-I-G-H-T-L-Y.wordpress.com. Always some fun stuff going on there at Adam Goreightly's Untamed Dimensions blog. Check it out. Since we are so late on this week's episode, and I'm quite literally very exhausted here,
as we close out another edition of BOA Audio. We're going to skip this week's listener feedback and we'll bring it back next week, I promise. I already have three letters already lined up, but we're so late on the deadline here this week that I'd rather just push everything forward and wrap up the episode and try and get it out to people here by Monday night. Let me roll down the list of how you can get in touch with me. A, write to BOAaudio at Hotmail.com. B. Go to BOA and click the contact button or C. Join up at the official BOA forum theusofe.com T-H-E-U-S-O-F-E dot com Great group of folks there. We'd love to have you at the US of E.
So those are the three ways you can get in touch with me. Shoot me an email, send me your comments, your questions, your guest suggestions, your thoughtful critiques, and we'll read them here at the end of the program. on a future edition of BOA Audio listener feedback. Up next, as always, is the thanks portion of the show. A tip of my cap and a big thanks to the outstanding BOA staff. They are, of course, Leslie, Kyron, R. Lee, Joe V., Tina Sena, Rochelle Hawks, Richard Thomas, Paul Black, and Lasha Seniuk. Monday through Friday, amazing stuff from the BOA staff. top-notch esoteric reading material, thoughtful opinion pieces. You definitely want to check out their columns at Banal of America.
We say it every week, but it bears repeating once again, my friends. Banal of America is more than just a podcast series. If you're only listening to BOA Audio and you're not reading the columns at Banal of America, you're only getting half of the story. BOA, make it a part of your everyday search for esoteric news and opinion. Now comes the part of the show where I ask you for donations. Every week it seems like we're lamenting the sad state of the economy, and I hear more and more news about people losing their jobs or people just simply desperate to make ends meet. If you're one of those folks, my heart goes out to you. I don't want you to feel guilty that you can't donate to us. I know times are tough for so many of our great listeners, and I don't want you to end up missing a meal or something
just so you can donate to Benall of America Audio, so don't do that. But I know there are folks out there that are getting by, okay? They're in a good position here during this financial turmoil. I envy them. And as I said a couple of weeks ago or last week, I don't quite remember. I hope to get to that point myself in the not-too-distant future. But we're still just getting by here on BOA Audio. And we turn to those folks who are doing okay, and we ask them for donations. How do you do that? That's simple. You go to BOA or the BOA Audio Archive page. click the PayPal button, and that'll get you on the road to making a donation to BOA and BOA Audio. No donation is too small, and all donations go towards keeping Banal of America and BOA Audio up and running and freely available for all of our great listeners and readers the world over.
Next week on the program, it is another international edition of BOA Audio, just in time for St. Patrick's Day. the program will be traveling across the Atlantic once again, stopping in Ireland for discussion on UFOs of the Emerald Isle with Betty Myler, president of the UFO Society of Ireland. Betty's going to detail how her organization came to be formed, why it is a groundbreaking group in that country, unique aspects of Ireland with regards to the esoteric, remarkable UFO reports that Betty has collected from recent years, Her thoughts on the relationship between UFOs and the Irish government, media, and military, ancient monuments, mystery mounds, forgotten tombs, and much, much more. It's a fascinating, enlightening, and highly entertaining edition of BOA Audio with the President of the UFO Society of Ireland, Betty Myler.
That's next week on BOA Audio. Be there or be square. and with that we close the book here on another edition of BOA Audio big big thanks once again to Adam Gowrightly for coming on the show and as always super huge thanks to all of the great BOA Audio listeners thank you so much for sticking with us week in and week out here on the program I hope you've been enjoying the second half here of season 4 we've got a lot of great episodes in the pipeline for you that will be rolling out on the website in the weeks and months to come Stay tuned for those. Until next time, this is Tim Banal, thanking you for listening and signing off.